SugarFree

VIP - Insider
VIP
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Posts
2,744
Karma
1,976
As much as I dislike the Hadid’s -
I kinda like Bella’s new LOVE editorial.
NGL, Bella looks hot here lol. Drag me.


 
  • Agree
  • Disagree
  • Like
Reactions: 9 users

squiggle

Rising Star
Joined
Jun 15, 2019
Posts
187
Karma
515
Location
221B Baker Street
As much as I dislike the Hadid’s -
I kinda like Bella’s new LOVE editorial.
NGL, Bella looks hot here lol. Drag me.


I don't want to drag you - we're all entitled to our opinion, but I have to say I disagree. Sure, she looks better than usual and her face is slightly less dead than usual, but she still looks a little awkward. And her boobs are a little too...strong in the last picture.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: 1 users

SugarFree

VIP - Insider
VIP
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Posts
2,744
Karma
1,976
I don't want to drag you - we're all entitled to our opinion, but I have to say I disagree. Sure, she looks better than usual and her face is slightly less dead than usual, but she still looks a little awkward. And her boobs are a little too...strong in the last picture.
I guess after years of seeing nothing but awkward, cringe-worthy work by her - I was pleasantly surprised by the editorial.
I mean, I’m just saying if she walked up to me like that I definitely wouldn’t be opposed to it.. if you know what I mean. Trust me, I too hate myself for even finding her attractive here. I really wish I used the anon feature for this 😩 signing off forever. Good to know you all. :lol:
 
Last edited:
  • Funny
  • Like
Reactions: 13 users

FashionThin

VIP - Insider & The Boss
Staff member
VIP
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Posts
2,728
Karma
11,606
Location
New York
As much as I dislike the Hadid’s -
I kinda like Bella’s new LOVE editorial.
NGL, Bella looks hot here lol. Drag me.


I won't drag you but the hottest part for me is the idea of using her mouth as an ashtray. NGL, I'd enjoy that.
 
  • Funny
  • Agree
Reactions: 14 users

Tinyportia

SkinnyGossip Royal
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Posts
1,847
Karma
5,041
Location
Australia
In no way I am trying to blame the victim here
But that’s exactly what you are doing. Maybe I’ve completely misinterpreted your post but you seem to be blaming Bella for keeping silent, as if to suggest that had she spoken up, then maybe Razek’s behavior would not have continued. No. Razek sexually harassed and objectified women because he was a pig. His behavior continued because he was a pig. And because the culture at VS allowed it to continue. Just because Bella is wealthy and I suppose more “powerful” than other models doesn’t mean she was in a position of power vis a vis Victoria Secret and Razek. It’s been reported that women (and men) at VS didn’t speak up because they were scared about what would happen to them if they did. The ones that did try and speak up faced retribution. I’m sorry but I think there are so many flaws with your analysis. We should be discussing Razek’s disgusting behavior and the poor corporate culture at VS that allowed it to go unchecked for so long. Bella is not to blame here. The only person that is to blame is Razek and Victoria’s Secret.
 
  • Agree
  • Like
  • Eye Roll
Reactions: 10 users

SugarFree

VIP - Insider
VIP
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Posts
2,744
Karma
1,976
But that’s exactly what you are doing. Maybe I’ve completely misinterpreted your post but you seem to be blaming Bella for keeping silent, as if to suggest that had she spoken up, then maybe Razek’s behavior would not have continued. No. Razek sexually harassed and objectified women because he was a pig. His behavior continued because he was a pig. And because the culture at VS allowed it to continue. Just because Bella is wealthy and I suppose more “powerful” than other models doesn’t mean she was in a position of power vis a vis Victoria Secret and Razek. It’s been reported that women (and men) at VS didn’t speak up because they were scared about what would happen to them if they did. The ones that did try and speak up faced retribution. I’m sorry but I think there are so many flaws with your analysis. We should be discussing Razek’s disgusting behavior and the poor corporate culture at VS that allowed it to go unchecked for so long. Bella is not to blame here. The only person that is to blame is Razek and Victoria’s Secret.
Exactly what I wanted to say but I just didn’t have the energy (especially today) to keep bringing up these points and debate people on it. (Not just on SG - but literally everywhere, all of the time - both online and offline. For the past couple of years.) Thank you @Tinyportia for saying what needs to be said. Literally just too drained of this BS.
 
  • Like
  • Agree
Reactions: 4 users

proseccoprincess

SkinnyGossip Royal
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Posts
1,310
Karma
5,531
Location
Nolita
Do I think that Bella had the power/energy/will to speak up and challenge Ed in the moment? Not necessarily. But it is disingenuous of her to be praising Ed/VS after the fact, assuming she wasn't ok with Ed's actions.
 
  • Agree
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

irid3scence

Rising Star
Joined
Jun 26, 2019
Posts
166
Karma
555
First of all, @SugarFree I'm sorry to hear about the negative experiences you've had in the industry, and that you moreover feel that conversations about certain issues are more wearying than productive. I trust that, if really nothing else, these experiences have made you a mentor capable of helping her model protégés avoid some of the same :flower:

Re: "titties" and other crass behavior, I think we can allow (putting aside the question of sufficiency) that Razek is being punished for a social outlook that was generally acceptable for most of his life. He's derided for being out of touch, shit on for not having adapted his views to fit with the times (cf VSFS trans models fiasco).... He's not going to have the legacy that he thought he'd worked so hard for--doesn't that count for something, for those of you clamoring for him to be #cancelled?

Just because Bella is wealthy and I suppose more “powerful” than other models doesn’t mean she was in a position of power vis a vis Victoria Secret and Razek. It’s been reported that women (and men) at VS didn’t speak up because they were scared about what would happen to them if they did.
Let's not forget that sister Gigi was applauded to the ends of the Earth--including here--for using her privilege to imperiously march a trespassing comedienne off the Chanel runway. What's the worst that could have happened to Bella if she had decided she didn't want to put up with Razek's pervy-old-man shenanigans? No VSFS? It's not like it would have been her big break (unlike for other models). The horror, not having the extrinsic motivation to reduce the jiggle of her ass by some deadline. The horror, not being validated by swooning teen fangirls gushing that her underwear-clad body is "#goals" on social media.

I'm not saying she had to speak up. But if she had quietly protested by dropping her participation in the show, her career (even as a model, never mind as the sort of celebrity she is) would have been just fine, with the usual slew of companies lined up to have her. Compare this to, say, Zuo Ye, who must have been pretty damn mortified to learn that the D&G ad she was going to star in would portray her people as clueless barbarians. What were *her* options? If not a Hadid/Jenner(/Gerber) to say no when they're not comfortable, then who?

As much as I dislike the Hadid’s -
I kinda like Bella’s new LOVE editorial.
NGL, Bella looks hot here lol. Drag me.


Also, this was a waste of a concept if I've ever seen one.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Agree
Reactions: 1 users

Tinyportia

SkinnyGossip Royal
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Posts
1,847
Karma
5,041
Location
Australia
First of all, @SugarFree I'm sorry to hear about the negative experiences you've had in the industry, and that you moreover feel that conversations about certain issues are more wearying than productive. I trust that, if really nothing else, these experiences have made you a mentor capable of helping her model protégés avoid some of the same :flower:

Re: "titties" and other crass behavior, I think we can allow (putting aside the question of sufficiency) that Razek is being punished for a social outlook that was generally acceptable for most of his life. He's derided for being out of touch, shit on for not having adapted his views to fit with the times (cf VSFS trans models fiasco).... He's not going to have the legacy that he thought he'd worked so hard for--doesn't that count for something, for those of you clamoring for him to be #cancelled?



Let's not forget that sister Gigi was applauded to the ends of the Earth--including here--for using her privilege to imperiously march a trespassing comedienne off the Chanel runway. What's the worst that could have happened to Bella if she had decided she didn't want to put up with Razek's pervy-old-man shenanigans? No VSFS? It's not like it would have been her big break (unlike for other models). The horror, not having the extrinsic motivation to reduce the jiggle of her ass by some deadline. The horror, not being validated by swooning teen fangirls gushing that her underwear-clad body is "#goals" on social media.

I'm not saying she had to speak up. But if she had quietly protested by dropping her participation in the show, her career (even as a model, never mind as the sort of celebrity she is) would have been just fine, with the usual slew of companies lined up to have her. Compare this to, say, Zuo Ye, who must have been pretty damn mortified to learn that the D&G ad she was going to star in would portray her people as clueless barbarians. What were *her* options? If not a Hadid/Jenner(/Gerber) to say no when they're not comfortable, then who?



Also, this was a waste of a concept if I've ever seen one.
@irid3scence thank you for your response. I do have fundamental issue with this discussion evolving into whether or not Bella should have spoken up and whether the "right thing to do" was to refuse to be part of VS altogether. I just think that misses the bigger issue here.

Personally, I have mixed emotions about the MeToo movement. I have seen some women flat out lie about their experience as an act of revenge against a man with whom they had a failed relationship and as a result, the men's lives were completely destroyed. Trial by media or "guilty until proven innocent" can have irreparable consequences. At the same time, I've also seen women who were genuine victims of sexual harrassment likewise had their lives turned upside down by the actions of one man. I guess what I am saying is I'd much rather have a conversation centred around Razek's behaviour and the media's response to the allegations than one about what Bella should/shouldn't have done.
 
  • Agree
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

irid3scence

Rising Star
Joined
Jun 26, 2019
Posts
166
Karma
555
I guess what I am saying is I'd much rather have a conversation centred around Razek's behaviour and the media's response to the allegations than one about what Bella should/shouldn't have done.
Dunno. Not saying it's directly comparable to modelling, but my professional community has had more than its share of #metoo incidents and associated moral reckoning, and I've experienced unsavory shit more than once. I've passed up career opportunities because I didn't want to continue working with certain vile characters, and I didn't have the head start of someone like Bella. I've spent a lot of time wondering in these cases if I'd done enough--whether my perspective actually minimized the danger these individuals posed, and I should have done more (been more forceful in discussions with people in power) to make sure they couldn't as easily prey on other junior women. (And to what extent would those in positions of power really have been willing to act, if I'd insisted on more?) I've also spent a fair amount of time wondering if I'd done the opposite--ie, overreacted.

I think it's important in these conversations to fully acknowledge the agency of all parties that are not the perpetrator.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Tinyportia

SkinnyGossip Royal
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Posts
1,847
Karma
5,041
Location
Australia
Dunno. Not saying it's directly comparable to modelling, but my professional community has had more than its share of #metoo incidents and associated moral reckoning, and I've experienced unsavory shit more than once. I've passed up career opportunities because I didn't want to continue working with certain vile characters, and I didn't have the head start of someone like Bella. I've spent a lot of time wondering in these cases if I'd done enough--whether my perspective actually minimized the danger these individuals posed, and I should have done more (been more forceful in discussions with people in power) to make sure they couldn't as easily prey on other junior women. (And to what extent would those in positions of power really have been willing to act, if I'd insisted on more?) I've also spent a fair amount of time wondering if I'd done the opposite--ie, overreacted.

I think it's important in these conversations to fully acknowledge the agency of all parties that are not the perpetrator.
Mmm you raise some interesting points. And I completely agree that it’s important to acknowledge the agency of all parties that are not the perpetrator. But I think rather than focusing our attention on Bella we should be discussing those people at VS who had a direct influence on the corporate culture of the organisation. Let’s assume here that everything that’s been reported in the media is 100% accurate. That all the allegations against Razek are true. That the board / executive management team at VS knew what was going on and turned a blind eye. That the models and other staff that complained did in fact lose their jobs as a result. Why is that, if the board / executive team knew what was going on, then why didn’t they do anything? Those are the people who’s actions (or lack thereof) deserve our attention.

To be clear, I’m not trying to veto any discussion about Bella’s choices in this whole saga (though I’m fully aware that’s how I’ve come across so far!). I just think that doing so detracts from the bigger issue.

Edit to say that I like we are having this conversation. You have certainly given me a new perspective to consider. :flower:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

SugarFree

VIP - Insider
VIP
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Posts
2,744
Karma
1,976
First of all, @SugarFree I'm sorry to hear about the negative experiences you've had in the industry, and that you moreover feel that conversations about certain issues are more wearying than productive. I trust that, if really nothing else, these experiences have made you a mentor capable of helping her model protégés avoid some of the same :flower:

Re: "titties" and other crass behavior, I think we can allow (putting aside the question of sufficiency) that Razek is being punished for a social outlook that was generally acceptable for most of his life. He's derided for being out of touch, shit on for not having adapted his views to fit with the times (cf VSFS trans models fiasco).... He's not going to have the legacy that he thought he'd worked so hard for--doesn't that count for something, for those of you clamoring for him to be #cancelled?

Let's not forget that sister Gigi was applauded to the ends of the Earth--including here--for using her privilege to imperiously march a trespassing comedienne off the Chanel runway. What's the worst that could have happened to Bella if she had decided she didn't want to put up with Razek's pervy-old-man shenanigans? No VSFS? It's not like it would have been her big break (unlike for other models). The horror, not having the extrinsic motivation to reduce the jiggle of her ass by some deadline. The horror, not being validated by swooning teen fangirls gushing that her underwear-clad body is "#goals" on social media.

I'm not saying she had to speak up. But if she had quietly protested by dropping her participation in the show, her career (even as a model, never mind as the sort of celebrity she is) would have been just fine, with the usual slew of companies lined up to have her. Compare this to, say, Zuo Ye, who must have been pretty damn mortified to learn that the D&G ad she was going to star in would portray her people as clueless barbarians. What were *her* options? If not a Hadid/Jenner(/Gerber) to say no when they're not comfortable, then who?

Also, this was a waste of a concept if I've ever seen one.
Thanks for your response! First I’d like to say in regards to my own experiences - all of them but one had been positive. Modeling actually made me more confident, healthier and more accepting of who I was - especially physically than before I started. What happened was unfortunate, and extremely difficult for me (as I have stated in another thread.) I wouldn’t say it at all reflects the industry in a whole rather it reflects one mans abuse of a power imbalance.. which can happen in any industry.

I do agree with you that #cancel culture is getting out of hand. Contrapoints does a great video talking about the history of cancel culture, and what it has morphed into today and the implications surrounding it. I find her videos quite intelligent, funny and she’s pretty sassy

Edit: I want to ad that I think Bella speaking out against Ed vs. Gigi taking a protestor off a runway is two, COMPLETELY different scenarios. Like Apple to Oranges. Taking a protestor off the runway vs speaking out against an extremely powerful man who is holding one of the most important contracts you can have (at the time).. I mean I don’t know how to make it anymore clear that the two cannot be compared.

@irid3scence thank you for your response. I do have fundamental issue with this discussion evolving into whether or not Bella should have spoken up and whether the "right thing to do" was to refuse to be part of VS altogether. I just think that misses the bigger issue here.

Personally, I have mixed emotions about the MeToo movement. I have seen some women flat out lie about their experience as an act of revenge against a man with whom they had a failed relationship and as a result, the men's lives were completely destroyed. Trial by media or "guilty until proven innocent" can have irreparable consequences. At the same time, I've also seen women who were genuine victims of sexual harrassment likewise had their lives turned upside down by the actions of one man. I guess what I am saying is I'd much rather have a conversation centred around Razek's behaviour and the media's response to the allegations than one about what Bella should/shouldn't have done.
The #metoo movement has definitely changed, that is for sure. I highly recommend anyone to watch the new Apple+ series “The Morning Show.” It goes into depth about the #MeToo movement, how it was in the beginning to how it’s become now. If we are going over board as a society to cancel and call out men for their behaviour that is not necessarily “that bad”. It definitely shows both sides of the coin, the mans perspective as well as the accused, and the ones who have stood by and just watched or have even gone as far as covering it up. The first few episodes can be a bit slow - but I highly recommend watching it to the end.

& I agree that the conversation should be more around Ed’s behaviour and not whether Bella should have spoken out sooner. There are thousands of possibilities as to why it’s only coming out now. Perhaps she, and those around her literally did not think it was that bad. Maybe she is now seeing other people speak out against him and thought she could at least share her own experience to hold him better accountable for the sake of the other women because she is very established. I wouldn’t put it past her managers, PR people, and agents advising her not to over think what had happen, that she has a major opportunity, so despite how she feels to bite the bullet, do the show, and graciously thank him afterwards. After all it wasn’t “that bad” and he did give her a major platform. We have to remember that at that time, her career was not as big as Gigi’s. Big - but not as strong as it is now. I definitely don’t know if I’d rock the boat if I was in her shoes. Especially since I deal these kind of comments, *and* way worse quite frequently in all kinds of settings (strangers, work people, etc.) I definitely have had to pick and choose my battles. I wouldn’t be surprised if she has too. There are millions of motives that we can speculate but I do have a feeling she’s now speaking out about her own experience as a way to stand with the other women. I could be wrong, but I don’t really see any other ulterior motive. From what Ive read, it doesn’t look like she’s trying to make herself out to be a victim just stating the facts of her own experience and how it ties into the culture that was there.

ps. I haven’t had coffee yet and I’m still kind of asleep so I apologize if I made any mistakes.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Love
  • Agree
Reactions: 6 users

marieebo

Grand Dame
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Posts
2,036
Karma
3,271
Location
Italy
First of all, @SugarFree I'm sorry to hear about the negative experiences you've had in the industry, and that you moreover feel that conversations about certain issues are more wearying than productive. I trust that, if really nothing else, these experiences have made you a mentor capable of helping her model protégés avoid some of the same :flower:

Re: "titties" and other crass behavior, I think we can allow (putting aside the question of sufficiency) that Razek is being punished for a social outlook that was generally acceptable for most of his life. He's derided for being out of touch, shit on for not having adapted his views to fit with the times (cf VSFS trans models fiasco).... He's not going to have the legacy that he thought he'd worked so hard for--doesn't that count for something, for those of you clamoring for him to be #cancelled?



Let's not forget that sister Gigi was applauded to the ends of the Earth--including here--for using her privilege to imperiously march a trespassing comedienne off the Chanel runway. What's the worst that could have happened to Bella if she had decided she didn't want to put up with Razek's pervy-old-man shenanigans? No VSFS? It's not like it would have been her big break (unlike for other models). The horror, not having the extrinsic motivation to reduce the jiggle of her ass by some deadline. The horror, not being validated by swooning teen fangirls gushing that her underwear-clad body is "#goals" on social media.

I'm not saying she had to speak up. But if she had quietly protested by dropping her participation in the show, her career (even as a model, never mind as the sort of celebrity she is) would have been just fine, with the usual slew of companies lined up to have her. Compare this to, say, Zuo Ye, who must have been pretty damn mortified to learn that the D&G ad she was going to star in would portray her people as clueless barbarians. What were *her* options? If not a Hadid/Jenner(/Gerber) to say no when they're not comfortable, then who?



Also, this was a waste of a concept if I've ever seen one.
This is exactly what I was trying to say.
 

marieebo

Grand Dame
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Posts
2,036
Karma
3,271
Location
Italy
But that’s exactly what you are doing. Maybe I’ve completely misinterpreted your post but you seem to be blaming Bella for keeping silent, as if to suggest that had she spoken up, then maybe Razek’s behavior would not have continued. No. Razek sexually harassed and objectified women because he was a pig. His behavior continued because he was a pig. And because the culture at VS allowed it to continue. Just because Bella is wealthy and I suppose more “powerful” than other models doesn’t mean she was in a position of power vis a vis Victoria Secret and Razek. It’s been reported that women (and men) at VS didn’t speak up because they were scared about what would happen to them if they did. The ones that did try and speak up faced retribution. I’m sorry but I think there are so many flaws with your analysis. We should be discussing Razek’s disgusting behavior and the poor corporate culture at VS that allowed it to go unchecked for so long. Bella is not to blame here. The only person that is to blame is Razek and Victoria’s Secret.
I am not blaming her, I am sorry if it sounded this way but that was not the point of my consideration. I am just saying, like another girl here wrote better than me, that she wasted an opportunity on speaking out on a major topic. We are talking about 2018, the last vs show where we could say that the Hadids were probably more relevant than the show itself. I am not Bella’s biggest fan, but I have empathy of her as a woman and I know what it feels like if she didn’t feel in the position of coming out like that, but seeing both her & Gigi saying such kind and ‘heartful’ words about Ed (even last year where I believe those controversy on him and VS as a brand were already out) and they act like activist on these topics, it all sounds wrong to me. This is just my opinion, not blaming anyone. Just saying that Ed Razek in 2018 wasn’t exactly the Anna Wintour of the fashion industry, I wish more people would have come forward in trashing him. But I hope these girls can find the strength to be honest to help other models in the industry too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

marieebo

Grand Dame
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Posts
2,036
Karma
3,271
Location
Italy
I’ve had a work experience where we were all verbally harassed by one of our coach. He did this to all the young new girls at the internship and he would say these things in front of everyone. Women who where at his same job position or even higher would laugh w him and when we confronted them, they told us that it wasn’t that big of a deal. I really wish someone in a bigger position than us would have done something, even if I know that he was the only one to blame for his action. Sometimes an old man telling you that you have nice boobs is considered ‘funny’ and by terms of society, when it comes to work, you just have to brush it off. I think this is exactly what happened here, they probably were so used to him making comments about models, that it was considered normal behavior.
 

irid3scence

Rising Star
Joined
Jun 26, 2019
Posts
166
Karma
555
[I was a bit drunk last night, and didn't express the above as well as I would have liked. Thank you for indulging me; let me now try to be clearer.]

I believe that in these real-life sagas, we have a complex cast of characters: heroes and villains, yes, and maybe damsels in distress as well, but even more opportunists and cowards. To reduce things to a morality play involving (individual) perpetrators and victims--as is the current societal wont--is IMO one of the most unempowering narratives that we can present.

I think here, we can identify the following characters: Razek, others at VS and in the industry, models of various stature who worked with/for VS, Hadids/Bella in particular, and the media. I'll ignore the media for now, and note just that their coverage is necessarily based on both the accounts of the foregoing parties and the popular mood.

Let's start with Razek. I'm not saying we should excuse his behavior, but I think it's important to contextualize it. He's old enough to be many people's grandfather. Specifically, he's old enough to have been drafted for the Vietnam War--a main architect of which had these fucked up views on the people that he was shipping off good ol' American boys to fight. He's more than old enough to remember when conversion therapy--entailing electric shocks and other manners of torture--was regarded as a scientifically sound and ethical means of "curing" homosexuality. I'm not saying that personal sociopolitical inertia is OK, that he had no obligation to modulate his beliefs towards those more in accord with the modern ethos. I'm saying that it's facile and not altogether useful to judge a man without reference to the world he's known over the entire course of his life. Your grandparents honestly don't hold any beliefs that are racist/sexist/homophobic by today's standards?

You might say OK, but *your* grandfather wasn't the head of a conglomerate best known for producing gaudy titty adornments--and thus defining notions of femininity in the process. So shouldn't Razek be held to a different/higher standard? I submit an emphatic no, as he, too, is ultimately but a bit player in these societal dramas. Weren't women just eating up the fantasy of womanhood that VS embodied, from before Heidi Klum through the whole reign of Adriana Lima? Did anyone find his conduct (at VS, and maybe in his personal life as well) in all these years objectionable to the point of falling outside social norms?* I think he might be excused (if not for his actions) for being genuinely confused at the seemingly sudden antipathy from all sides--and for thinking his only wrong was not to have gotten the memo that times had profoundly changed.

Re: Bella, I can't help but think her position is simply incomparable to that of any other models (with the exception of fellow nepo-models). If even Karlie Kloss--with her upper-middle class American upbringing and Mommy by her side apparently every step of the way--had come out with a similar story, I'd be more sympathetic. But here is someone who muscled her way into an industry she is ludicrously not cut out for, who nabbed a gig that so many girls busted their skinny asses for, and who had multiple opportunities (notably afterwards) to convey that she wasn't cool with what had gone down. Her "me, too" now to me has some element of wanting to have her cake and eat it, too. (Yes, there's a fat joke there.)

I get that @SugarFree has a kinder view of Bella than I and @marieebo (and perhaps others) do--and I'm open-minded enough to grant that perhaps the rest of us should take a cue if someone who has actually experienced the encroachment of a Hadid on their professional life is willing to express solidarity. But honestly, right now, I just can't. The only "me, too" I'd be willing to hear from her would have to include a frank acknowledgement of her extreme privilege, and demonstrate an awareness that relatively obscure models no doubt experienced far worse--and were utterly disenfranchised by comparison. ie, I'd be fine if she'd said something like, "If even I, who am unusually fortunate among models, experienced this, and had trouble coming forward about it until now, imagine how much worse things were/are for all the girls who are not as lucky as me." But she didn't, afaict; there was only the weird chumminess with Razek et al mentioned above.


*I read the article and don't think anything described seemed *unusually* egregious. It appears to depict a sort of "casual sexism" that I imagine is somewhat widespread in the industry--and a feature of others, as well. What, then, of all the execs and other senior people at VS? Was shrugging off these sorts of attitudes and behaviors towards women really not typical of the (industry) culture? Did someone risk their job to say "enough is enough" when a girl came to them with a particularly bad story? How many people paid lip service to the idea of protecting girls, but in reality treated a girl's complaints as above all an inconvenience to the business? Everyone is an author of part of the story.... Demonizing Razek is a bit like demonizing Donald Trump: while I get that taking swipes at Trump is a pastime of the American left, they miss that he is emblematic of an entire zeitgeist. Just like how many liberals seem to want to feel good about themselves more than grasp that the people of, say, Appalachia, are not actually too dumb to realize what's good for them, but hear something in Trump's rhetoric that resonates with them; it seems like people want to make Razek a big bad bogeyman rather than to explore sincerely why the culture has been for the longest time what it is, and what in particular is problematic. (And no, "cuz da patriarchy" does not constitute a sincere exploration of the issues.) I guess big bad bogeymen are funner, though.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: 1 users

SugarFree

VIP - Insider
VIP
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Posts
2,744
Karma
1,976
I get that @SugarFree has a kinder view of Bella than I and @marieebo (and perhaps others) do--and I'm open-minded enough to grant that perhaps the rest of us should take a cue if someone who has actually experienced the encroachment of a Hadid on their professional life is willing to express solidarity. But honestly, right now, I just can't.
i want to make it extremely clear with you that me posting the above images has 0 to do with how I feel about Bella in this situation. (And even those photos are separate from how I feel about Bella as a whole individual, working in this industry. I have voiced how I feel about the Hadid’s before. I simply liked that certain set of photos.) Either way, liking or disliking her personally has absolutely no place for this conversation. Just because the majority of us don’t like the Hadid’s doesn’t mean we shluld throw them under the bus here just because they’re the fucking Hadid’s. And nobody is making her out to be the victim. It was literally a fact that was stated about her own experience that matches what many other models and employees went through. End of story.

And it seems like you did not infact, read the article. People had been fired for speaking out against him. Bella plays such a minor role as to everything else that had happened. Maybe pay attention to that than focusing on some model you don’t like that had a brief encounter of the culture there.

One was Ms. Muise. In 2007, after two years of wearing the coveted angel wings in the Victoria’s Secret runway show, the 19-year-old was invited to dinner with Mr. Razek. She was excited to cultivate a professional relationship with one of the fashion industry’s most powerful men, she said.

Mr. Razek picked her up in a chauffeured car. On the way to the restaurant, he tried to kiss her, she said. Ms. Muise rebuffed him; Mr. Razek persisted.

For months, he sent her intimate emails, which The Times reviewed. At one point he suggested they move in together in his house in Turks and Caicos. Another time, he urged Ms. Muise to help him find a home in the Dominican Republic for them to share.

“I need someplace sexy to take you!” he wrote.

Ms. Muise maintained a polite tone in her emails, trying to protect her career. When Mr. Razek asked her to come to his New York home for dinner, Ms. Muise said the prospect of dining alone with Mr. Razek made her uneasy; she skipped the dinner.

She soon learned that for the first time in four years, Victoria’s Secret had not picked her for its 2008 fashion show.
You have absolutely no idea what it’s like to work hard every day of your career to reach a certain point. And once you get there, you find out the only way to keep your spot is to not only sleep with the man who holds your job in his hands but to live with him? This simply should never be okay. Ever. This is the culture they are calling out.
This kind of behaviour should be called out in any industry. I kinda feel though, especially in the modeling/entertainment industry, people just roll their eyes and say well that’s just how it is. That’s what is expected. What do they expect? No.
Yeah, I see people sleeping with others to up their career, and if it’s their choice then fine I guess. But it shouldn’t be standard that you have to do that, and if you don’t you lose your job.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users

Tinyportia

SkinnyGossip Royal
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Posts
1,847
Karma
5,041
Location
Australia
What, then, of all the execs and other senior people at VS? Was shrugging off these sorts of attitudes and behaviors towards women really not typical of the (industry) culture? Did someone risk their job to say "enough is enough" when a girl came to them with a particularly bad story? How many people paid lip service to the idea of protecting girls, but in reality treated a girl's complaints as above all an inconvenience to the business?
This. This is the problem. As I have stated already in previous posts, it’s the corporate culture (or yes, industry culture) at VS that allowed Razek’s behaviour to continue for so long. They’re just as responsible as him IMO. In your post you seem to suggest that Bella, because she never spoke out despite her wealth and apparent power, means she is also somehow partly responsible. As @SugarFree and I have already both stated, Bella is not the problem here at all. Yeah sure, it would’ve been great if she’d spoken out, but she should not be blamed for keeping silent. The VS execs on the other hand...


I read the article and don't think anything described seemed *unusually* egregious. It appears to depict a sort of "casual sexism"
Ok I think that explains why we have such differing views. While I disagree that this article alone depicts “casual sexism”, it’s been reported elsewhere that the conduct (by Razek as well as other senior staff) included groping, pressuring women for sex and attempting to kiss women. I like to think I’m incredibly open minded. Anyone that knows me knows I’m far from PC or a SJW and I’ve previously said here that I have issues with the MeToo movement. But I just can’t see how this sort of behaviour could be described as just “casual sexism”.


Either way, liking or disliking her personally has absolutely no place for this conversation. Just because the majority of us don’t like the Hadid’s doesn’t mean we shluld throw them under the bus here just because they’re the fucking Hadid’s.
Agree 100%. I really dislike Bella. She’s privileged, spoilt and painfully average and has no place in the modelling industry. Hey! Maybe the real discussion to be had here is: if Bella had never been allowed to model in the first place, then she never would’ve modelled for VS, and then we never would be having this debate! I’m ok if we blame her for that :lol:
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: 1 user